RE: [Boost-users] Re: The Boost Community
-----Original Message----- From: boost-users-bounces@lists.boost.org [mailto:boost-users- bounces@lists.boost.org] On Behalf Of David Abrahams Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 6:05 AM To: boost-users@lists.boost.org Subject: [Boost-users] Re: The Boost Community
"Brian Braatz" <brianb@rmtg.com> writes:
[Brian Braatz Writes:] Did some more peeking. Since I use outlook for everything (or the
Hmm... Ok Dave made some pretty good points below. Thinking... The perspective I am coming from is this. I have been connected to the boost world now for two years. I am a relative newbie. But I am thinking back to the things that can "immediately hook" a new person. I think the points you raised towards mine are all valid. I think the disconnect is we are thinking about different use cases if you will. I am coming from a "ok so a non-boost person hits the page, how do we best speak to that person" point of view. I think your points come more from a practical day to day perspective. I respect that. I can speak FROM the "newbie" perspective because it wasn't that long ago for me. And I can tell you that it takes an awful lot of patience and persistence to become someone who "sees what boost does" and can actually start using it in projects. The work done on the web site an the libraries is of excellent quality. For that I applaud. But for the person coming in cold, the bigger picture is difficult to get initially. I believe the issues I am raising can be best spoken to by: 1- Driving and encouraging more use of the Wiki 2- I would place a link to the users boost list and the wiki somewhere in the upper left of the page 3- Having a quick run down of each library also linked in the same area (this was suggested before) 4- Having a runtime environment for boost (like CGYWin does) (I have done something like this internal to our company- Dave- you may recall me showing you this at oopsla) I believe these suggestions would help the newbie. Of course these have to be balanced with the day to day needs of the day to day people. Brian :) main
page's archive searching) I was not aware of this view http://lists.boost.org/boost/2005/03/date.php
This speaks to what I was raising before. However it is not "in my face" (I never noticed this view existed on the site before today).
Maybe because the main Boost web archive was only recently changed to use new software.
I would like to amend my suggestion to be the following:
1- Formal link to the list on boost.org main page
There are lots of Boost mailing lists. If we drive everything we think is important up to the top level it will become even harder to use than it already is. What's wrong with www.boost.org/more/mailing_lists.htm, which is prominently linked from the main page?
2- Boost wiki links also a "first class citizen" link on the first page I.e. it goes from the BOTTOM of the page to the TOP- and it goes from being "Unofficial" to being one if not the FIRST thing on the list
My suggestion would be to list the left pane like so:
Boost Wiki Boost Mailing list (takes you to the lists view above)
I don't know about that; that view doesn't tell you how to post or subscribe to the list. I don't think the "Boost Mailing List" link ought to lead people down a tunnel that only gives them a view of the archive.
And then everything else
Addtionally- I would add putting a link to the Wiki in the mail (previously discussed) and at the top of the "archive view" link above. (responding to my own post)
Not sure about that one either. We need some criteria to decide what gets driven to the top level everywhere.
-- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com
_______________________________________________ Boost-users mailing list Boost-users@lists.boost.org http://lists.boost.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/boost-users
Brian Braatz schrieb:
I am coming from a "ok so a non-boost person hits the page, how do we best speak to that person" point of view.
I can speak FROM the "newbie" perspective because it wasn't that long ago for me. And I can tell you that it takes an awful lot of patience and persistence to become someone who "sees what boost does" and can actually start using it in projects.
I don't think people come by accident to the boost page(and they definitely don't to the community page) and need to be convinced that they need boost. they look for a specific library/class and they've been told, "boost has that". later on they look what also is in boost. at least that is how it worked for me. so a community page(especially user comments in documentation) helps a new user to get into it. it is imho not the function of a community page to raise interest. (and I think it can't). and I think the best thing you can do to bring a new user into the community thing is to have documentation and user comments on the same page(see php). because what a user definitely does is look at the documentation when he's found the library he's looking for.
The work done on the web site an the libraries is of excellent quality. For that I applaud. But for the person coming in cold, the bigger picture is difficult to get initially.
I believe the issues I am raising can be best spoken to by:
1- Driving and encouraging more use of the Wiki 2- I would place a link to the users boost list and the wiki somewhere in the upper left of the page 3- Having a quick run down of each library also linked in the same area (this was suggested before) 4- Having a runtime environment for boost (like CGYWin does) (I have done something like this internal to our company- Dave- you may recall me showing you this at oopsla)
I believe these suggestions would help the newbie. Of course these have to be balanced with the day to day needs of the day to day people.
Brian :)
-----Original Message----- From: boost-users-bounces@lists.boost.org [mailto:boost-users- bounces@lists.boost.org] On Behalf Of David Abrahams Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 6:05 AM To: boost-users@lists.boost.org Subject: [Boost-users] Re: The Boost Community
"Brian Braatz" <brianb@rmtg.com> writes:
[Brian Braatz Writes:] Did some more peeking. Since I use outlook for everything (or the
main
page's archive searching) I was not aware of this view http://lists.boost.org/boost/2005/03/date.php
This speaks to what I was raising before. However it is not "in my face" (I never noticed this view existed on the site before today).
Maybe because the main Boost web archive was only recently changed to use new software.
I would like to amend my suggestion to be the following:
1- Formal link to the list on boost.org main page
There are lots of Boost mailing lists. If we drive everything we think is important up to the top level it will become even harder to use than it already is. What's wrong with www.boost.org/more/mailing_lists.htm, which is prominently linked from the main page?
2- Boost wiki links also a "first class citizen" link on the first page I.e. it goes from the BOTTOM of the page to the TOP- and it goes from being "Unofficial" to being one if not the FIRST thing on the list
My suggestion would be to list the left pane like so:
Boost Wiki Boost Mailing list (takes you to the lists view above)
I don't know about that; that view doesn't tell you how to post or subscribe to the list. I don't think the "Boost Mailing List" link ought to lead people down a tunnel that only gives them a view of the archive.
And then everything else
Addtionally- I would add putting a link to the Wiki in the mail (previously discussed) and at the top of the "archive view" link above. (responding to my own post)
Not sure about that one either. We need some criteria to decide what gets driven to the top level everywhere.
-- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com
_______________________________________________ Boost-users mailing list Boost-users@lists.boost.org http://lists.boost.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/boost-users
_______________________________________________ Boost-users mailing list Boost-users@lists.boost.org http://lists.boost.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/boost-users
-- Stefan Strasser
I'd like to second what Stefan said. Before I started using boost (only a couple of months back) I'd seen references to it in many articles in the C++ User Journal not to mention a few C++ related books. After starting on a new C++ project I realised I needed some of the libraries mentioned and went straight for them. So it was not so much a case of "do I need boost?" but "where do I find the bits I need now, and how do I use them?" Dave Stefan Strasser wrote:
I don't think people come by accident to the boost page(and they definitely don't to the community page) and need to be convinced that they need boost. they look for a specific library/class and they've been told, "boost has that". later on they look what also is in boost. at least that is how it worked for me.
so a community page(especially user comments in documentation) helps a new user to get into it. it is imho not the function of a community page to raise interest. (and I think it can't).
and I think the best thing you can do to bring a new user into the community thing is to have documentation and user comments on the same page(see php). because what a user definitely does is look at the documentation when he's found the library he's looking for.
Dave Snowdon ha escrito:
I'd like to second what Stefan said. Before I started using boost (only a couple of months back) I'd seen references to it in many articles in the C++ User Journal not to mention a few C++ related books.
Maybe that's a significant difference wrt to the rest of the C++ community: Many programmers are not subscribed to CUJ and do not buy intermediate/advanced books (entry-level references do not usually list Boost.) I'd like a website that holds the attention of the casual comer. A newbie with just a passing knowledge of what Boost is might be scared by the contents of boost.org and never return back; a more friendly site, with forums and stuff, is a more agreeable place to hang around and eventually decide to try Boost for real. Joaquín M López Muñoz Telefónica, Investigación y Desarrollo
After starting on a new C++ project I realised I needed some of the libraries mentioned and went straight for them. So it was not so much a case of "do I need boost?" but "where do I find the bits I need now, and how do I use them?"
Dave
Stefan Strasser wrote:
I don't think people come by accident to the boost page(and they definitely don't to the community page) and need to be convinced that they need boost. they look for a specific library/class and they've been told, "boost has that". later on they look what also is in boost. at least that is how it worked for me.
so a community page(especially user comments in documentation) helps a new user to get into it. it is imho not the function of a community page to raise interest. (and I think it can't).
and I think the best thing you can do to bring a new user into the community thing is to have documentation and user comments on the same page(see php). because what a user definitely does is look at the documentation when he's found the library he's looking for.
_______________________________________________ Boost-users mailing list Boost-users@lists.boost.org http://lists.boost.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/boost-users
On 5/9/05, Joaquín Mª López Muñoz <joaquin@tid.es> wrote:
Dave Snowdon ha escrito:
I'd like to second what Stefan said. Before I started using boost (only a couple of months back) I'd seen references to it in many articles in the C++ User Journal not to mention a few C++ related books.
Maybe that's a significant difference wrt to the rest of the C++ community: Many programmers are not subscribed to CUJ and do not buy intermediate/advanced books (entry-level references do not usually list Boost.)
I'd like a website that holds the attention of the casual comer. A newbie with just a passing knowledge of what Boost is might be scared by the contents of boost.org and never return back; a more friendly site, with forums and stuff, is a more agreeable place to hang around and eventually decide to try Boost for real.
Please add my vote to this stream of thought. Being a newbie, I'd have appreciated being pointed to this link from the smart_pointers documentation - http://www.cuj.com/documents/s=9481/cuj0408j/0408sutter.html?temp=jf199+SZnZ Giving newbies a comparison between the various well known alternatives, sure makes life easier and probably aids adoption. One other thing is that just reading CUJ articles only gives a superficial understanding of the concepts. It's only when one is actually using the concepts that one gets a deeper understanding. So putting the links/information closer to the documentation is much better IMHO. -shishir -- Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward. -- Vernon Law
"Joaquín Mª López Muñoz" <joaquin@tid.es> wrote I'd like a website that holds the attention of the casual comer. A newbie with just a passing knowledge of what Boost is might be scared by the contents of boost.org and never return back; a more friendly site, with forums and stuff, is a more agreeable place to hang around and eventually decide to try Boost for real. that has to be http://bike-shed.boost.org :-) regards Andy Little
"Joaquín Mª López Muñoz" <joaquin@tid.es> wrote
I'd like a website that holds the attention of the casual comer. A newbie with just a passing knowledge of what Boost is might be scared by the contents of boost.org and never return back; a more friendly site, with forums and stuff, is a more agreeable place to hang around and eventually decide to try Boost for real.
That has to be http://bike-shed.boost.org :-) regards Andy Little
participants (2)
-
Andy Little -
Brian Braatz -
Dave Snowdon -
Joaquín Mª López Muñoz -
Shishir Ramam -
Stefan Strasser